Interviews

Dassetto has taken part in the series of debates entitled 'Islam in the 21st Century. Identity, Modernity and Globalisation' organised by the European Institute of the Mediterranean and the UOC, and in the University's research seminar '(Re)searching Islam in Europe'. In this interview, he analyses the complexity of Islam in Europe, highlighting the problems and positive aspects, and stressing the challenges that need to be overcome in order to come to terms fully with modernity.


Do you feel that Islam in Europe can become a decisive element in the modernisation of the Islamic world?

I think so. I believe that Islam in Europe will be fundamental for Islam as a whole around the world. The problem is that Islam in Europe is still weak in terms of theoretical and doctrinal development. There is a lack of Islamic specialists and a solid, well-developed theoretical corpus.

Why is that?

Theological work is important and difficult in all religious systems, and Islam is no exception. For Islam in Europe to have a positive impact in the Islamic world, it has first to develop solid, systematic and well-produced work. The wise Muslims in Europe still have a long way to go. Nonetheless, I believe that there is a positive factor favouring the modernisation of Islam through the Muslims living in Europe, and that is that they live in plural and democratic societies. They have to adapt to the reality in Europe and become pragmatic. Although they may not want to, they end up questioning many of the rigorous dogma and open up their beliefs to the modern times.

In any case, do you not feel that it is a mistake to talk about the Muslim community in Europe as if it were a homogenous whole, without any cracks?

Without a doubt, this is a mistake. But it is also wrong to talk about the Muslim community. It is an inappropriate term. From a sociological point of view, it does not make sense to talk about a community. It is quite another thing that the majority of Muslims are aware of and wish to belong to Ummah, to the community of believers. The feeling of belonging and shared faith exists, but so too do great differences among Muslims. There is pluralism in Islam in Europe, although this is not always reflected the media.

How do these differences manifest themselves?

In many cases, they lead to tensions. I believe that this is due to the fact that there are no strong institutions in the Islamic world to regulate the faith's doctrine, rules and rituals, or behaviour, as is the case, say, for Christians. There are great differences in terms of what the majority of Muslims do and think and the actions of certain radical groups.

Many western researchers state that Islam in Europe is for the most part moderate and essentially religious. Would you agree?

I agree with this belief. Many European Muslims are fed up of the links made between Islam and politics or between Islam and terrorism. European Muslims, for the most part, want to continue to be Muslims. They try, to greater or lesser success, to adapt to the new reality, but they do not want to have to abandon their beliefs and feelings. However, European Muslims are not unaware of what is going on in the world, and they are also victims of the terrorism of radical Islamic groups. European Muslims are affected on a daily basis by the international events that give Islam a bad name. I also feel that it should be stressed that many Muslims have problems distancing themselves and criticising that carried out by groups in the name of Islam. They are often defensive or fall in to the trap of seeing themselves as victims. This, likewise, does not help improve their image or help non-Muslims gain a better understanding of their situation.

Everything seems to indicate that the sector of Islam in Europe that defends terrorism represents a tiny minority, though it has an important symbolic influence among Muslims.

Indeed, those in favour of terrorism are a tiny minority. This has been backed up by the security services. But, nonetheless, many Muslims find it hard to distance themselves and clearly condemn the use of indiscriminate violence. They often find it too easy to blame others for their difficulties: USA, Israel, the West? What no one can deny is that there is now a relationship between Islamist terrorism and the ideas and practices of certain Muslims. There is a relationship, though only intellectual, between what certain Salafist preachers and certain sectors influenced by Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood say, and the actions of the terrorists. Rigorous discourse and radical Islam legitimates, in some form, terrorism, especially among the young.

The Moroccan political expert Mohamed Berdouzi believes that, although not all Islamists are terrorists and that some of them even condemn terrorism, there are social, intellectual, sentimental and emotional links between both sectors. Do you agree with this view?

It seems to me that this is often the case. It is not a physical link, but there is some sort of connection, though it may only be intellectual and emotional, between what al-Qaida says and does and the thoughts and discourse of certain Islamic groups that are radical, to a greater or lesser extent. Radical Islamism does not work as a network, exactly, because there is no actual link between all of its elements, but like a culture medium producing a great number of violent reactions.

Felice Dassetto between Adela Ros, responsible of the IN3's Immigration and the Information Society research programme, and Eduard Aibar, Vice-Rector for Research.

What are the most important trends in Islam in Europe at the moment?

Islam in Europe is complex and contradictory. There are various trends. There are differences between the sectors of Islam of Arab origin or of Turkish and Pakistani origin. I feel it is important to highlight from among the main sectors the Islam of mystic tradition, which is organised into brotherhoods. Islamic mysticism is present throughout Europe. There are also groups arising from political Islam, such as the Muslim Brotherhood, al-Jamaa, al-Islam and other Salafist groups. Their Islam is essentially political and their aims similarly political. Within this sector, there are very active and radical groups, though they are still a minority. Pious Islam is another well-rooted sector which was very influential in the 1980s. It is an Islam based on ritual purism and rules. The neo-Salafist and the Political trends are also rigorous in their respect of rules and rituals. There is also an Islam arising among the new generations of middle-class Muslims. This does not place the same emphasis on ritual and rules in terms of being a good Muslim in the democratic and lay 21st-century European society. It is an Islam without complexes and reformist which often sees the need to reinterpret texts and open the doors to Ijtihad (debate and reflection). Some sectors of middle-class Islam combine tradition with openly post-modern values.

There is also the Islam of the banlieues, in France, as the researcher Gilles Kepel calls it.

When Gilles Kepel wrote about this Islam, a few years ago, he was referring to the Islam of the pious groups seen in the outskirts of the large French cities, where most of the inhabitants are from North Africa. Nowadays, both in France and other countries, there are many young Muslims who want to remain as such but who also want to be first-class citizens, and not second or third-class. They denounce the discrimination they suffer and want to be French or Belgian citizens, but they do not want to have to stop being Muslims. The Islamic veil is a way for some Muslim girls to affirm, at times obsessively, this identity. Interest in Arab calligraphy and aesthetics has increased among these young Muslims. The same is the case with Muslim rap and hip-hop musicians. They are new forms of expression that we need to look at carefully.

In this context you describe, what are your thoughts on some of the European Muslim thinkers, such as Tariq Ramadan? Are they really reformers or just Islamists in disguise?

I think that Tariq Ramadan is a reformer. In France, and in Belgium as well, those who say otherwise are mistaken. I feel that that put forward by Tariq Ramadan is designed to make Islamic doctrine as a whole move forward without questioning its fundamental bases. This is also the case with thinkers such as Mohammed Arkoun and Mohammed Mestiri, but they do not have support from the Muslim on the street. Whereas Tariq Ramadan does, and his work has had positive effects, though that does not mean that I agree with everything he says. I would say that Tariq Ramadan, and others like him, are the fire-fighters putting out the fires started by the most radical political Islamism. We mustn't shoot the fire-fighters. That would be a great political error.

Do you feel it is also an error to say that the disturbances involving young Muslims two years ago in France originated due to manipulation by radical neo-Salafist groups?

Absolutely. This simply isn't true. The disturbances were due to other, social and economic, causes. And if there was any manipulation it was by organised crime gangs who wanted to continue to control the outskirts of the large cities. It does not make sense to see it any other way. Islam in Europe does not have any sector with enough force or coherency to preach an internal Islamic revolution such as that put forward at the time by the 'Black Muslims' in the US. There are small groups carrying out terrible acts such as those in Madrid or London, but they have not achieved a popular Muslim uprising.

What is the greatest challenge for Muslims in Europe?

I think it is for them to remain Muslims, but adapting to the reality of Europe and accepting its values and rules. It is not easy to continue to be Muslim and proud of being religious in a society that looks down on or fails to take religious aspects into account. Thus, I think that people like Tariq Ramadan play a positive role. The evolution of Islam in Europe is not linear; it will have its ups and downs, and be affected by external factors such as international conflicts.

Islamophobia and the rise of the extreme right, as well as certain violent activities such as the disturbances arising from the caricatures of Mohammed, are worrying phenomena that do not aid the peaceful evolution of Islam in Europe.

I don't think it is right to talk of Islamophobia in Europe. Frankly, the conclusions reached by the United Nations on Islamophobia do not convince me. Islamophobia means the irrational and generalised reaction of non-Muslims towards Muslims. This is not the case in Europe. There have been some outbreaks of xenophobia and racism against Muslims in France, Spain, Holland, Belgium or the United Kingdom, but no general reaction. It is something else when Islam breeds concern among non-Muslim Europeans. There are people who are confused and scared, people who lack the intellectual tools needed to analyse complex phenomena. There is also a level of social and economic discrimination. It is obvious that young Muslims who wear the veil find it harder to find work than those who don't. There are social problems, and problems in terms of living together, and these require all countries to have a wide-ranging debate in order to find reasonable solutions. With regard to the second part of the question, I have already answered it to a degree. Many Muslims are defensive, fall in to the trap of seeing themselves as victims and fail to be self-critical. Likewise, there is a lack of solid Muslim thinkers and intellectual groups in Europe. They have not been able to respond to the challenges faced by Muslims. Debate and opening up to allow for dialogue need to be encouraged. I believe in dialogue, but for it to be worthwhile it has to be open and sincere. In Belgium, we have been able to sit down at the table with all kinds of people, from Islamists to extreme Flemish nationalists, or radical laypeople. The result has been positive. Debate is only possible if the right basis is built and the right people found.

What are the aims of the research you are currently working on?

We have created a centre to study Islam in the contemporary world and completed long-term research into the relationship between local Islam and Islamic globalisation. We are soon to start research into Islamic identity and I am completing a book on a Muslim brotherhood in Burkina Faso.